Okay, what is the deal with Bernie Stolar's hate on RPGs and 2D games in the 1990's?

[AkihitoZero1224]

The guy literally hates those two so much to the point he doesn't want those games in those categories getting a US release on the PS1 and Saturn, why does he hate those two so much? He seems to have a 3D superiority complex or something.

 

[DarkTownStrutters]

 

[moonbits]

because they didn't sell well and wanted the playstation to focus on 3d

 

[FarJyyUir]

Cause he wanted SEGA to stand out amongst the competition?
Really inappropriate joke
Too Soon?

 

[PhaseJump]

2D games were sitting in warehouses, not being ordered by retailers, and heavily associated with 16-bit generation.

3D games were the new cutting edge thing across the entire industry, in the arcades, and on computers.

RPGs were niche and never sold well in the west until Final Fantasy 7 figuratively tricked everybody into buying a copy with it's cinematic cutscenes.

 

[Metroid_Hybrid]

Long-story-short: He was an closed-minded boomer who may have been a shrewd businessman, but otherwise didn't know what the hell he was talking about in terms of what gamers actually wanted..

 

[TruxtonTatsujin TruxtonTatsujin]

An over obsession with new technology, you still see it to this day. Chasing it never ends well yet people in positions of power never learn.

 

[UnDubious]

2D games were sitting in warehouses, not being ordered by retailers, and heavily associated with 16-bit generation.

3D games were the new cutting edge thing across the entire industry, in the arcades, and on computers.

RPGs were niche and never sold well in the west until Final Fantasy 7 figuratively tricked everybody into buying a copy with it's cinematic cutscenes.

Were they actually sitting in warehouses? They rapidly became niche games in general when 3D came out, and gamers are obsessed with the new thing or the next thing, but they still had fanbases that bought them, which is why they were still being made. RPGs were niche in the West but not as niche as people pretend. A lot of 16-bit RPGs received official Western releases, all in all. Final Fantasy 6 (bka 3) actually sold well in the West, too, even if it was 7 that finally made the genre really popular over here.

Mostly it was an image/marketing thing. The PSX needed to be the cool new thing, and it needed to cater to self-conscious teenagers and whatnot. 2D was old, and RPGs weren't cool yet.

 

[dejiko]

simply bad taste nyo...he probably tastes bad himself, nyo!

 

[bjork]

For what it's worth, he stopped doing that altogether.

 

[NotReallyHere]

because they didn't sell well

Yep, this. Or the mentality of it, at least. The Genesis thrived largely on the sales of sports titles in the US, so the prevailing notion was that American gamers wanted more of that with the Saturn.

As someone who owned a Saturn back then - and had no knowledge of / access to the import market - I quite literally didn't know what I was missing. Yes, there were a few Saturn RPGs released in the US (Shining the Holy Ark, Panzer Dragoon Saga) but it wasn't until I got into the import scene in the early 2000s that I realized just how narrow the US release library really was.

But hey! We got World Series Baseball! And Madden '98!! C'mon, Sega...

Still feels weird playing the US version of Panzer Dragoon Saga and collecting "Stolarium" from random chests and loot boxes. Of all the people to give a shout-out to in a 32-Bit RPG...

 

[Mr. SyS]

You want to know something I've noticed among the mega rich? They tend to be VERY insulated from commoners and as a result they come off as bizarre or out of touch. That could have been Bernie's problem.

 

[Allyourbased]

"Bernie Stolar dropped the ball with the RAM cartridge
X-men Vs. Streetfighter could've expanded the market"

 

[MajesticSiN]

He probably has brain rot and also is an idiot.
And he smells bad.

 

[bjork]

He probably has brain rot and also is an idiot.
And he smells bad.

Two of these are 1000% for sure nowadays, the other one I don't know if it's possible still

 

[RetroMule]

Because the push for graphics and new tech was a majority of marketing in the 90s. This is the same era where saying how much data a cart used was a marketing point. Part of Donkey Kong Country's marketing on the SNES was how good it looked just on a basic SNES.

It's hard to lean on "Look how amazing these 3D graphics are", when you also put out games that look like it came from a generation back. It's a reason why Final Fantasy 7 blew up the way it did.

 

[TamagotchiTamaHero24's icon TamagotchiTamaHero24 TamagotchiTamaHero24]

As others above me have said: it’s about sales and money.
The time and cash investment in getting RPG’s translated for the west was often at odds with how well these games would sell. Many wouldn’t break even, many more would be a decent loss on investment, and that was a trend for nearly a decade in the western gaming industry. Honestly, it’s shocking we got as many RPG’s as we did over here with that context! I own a few older gaming magazines, and the perception of RPG’s seems to be at odds with itself: reviews will often praise games for being big and beautiful, but the general vibe outside of reviews is that RPG’s are for wimpy nerds. That perception, that certain genres of games are somehow inferior or superior, doesn’t go unnoticed by companies. Especially ones with profit hungry bosses.

That said, Bernie is a strange case even still. He only lasted within SEGA for about three years. He killed off the Saturn and left SEGA without almost any presence in the states for 1998 and 1999. Paradoxically, he also oversaw full translations of Panzer Dragoon Saga and Shining Force 3, games which were guaranteed to not make SEGA any money, but were still translated anyway because it would make fans happy. He was eventually fired from the company after he went against SEGA of Japan’s wishes for the Dreamcast to not be sold at a loss (they wanted it to be $250) and he priced it himself at $200, with the idea being that a lower price of entry would encourage more early adopters. The amount that SEGA lost on the system launch was more than they ever gained from the launch, which is money they were probably banking on to pay for other major expenses they had at the time (the production of Shenmue and the financing of licenses for their 2K series).

It seems that Bernie saw massive short term gains as the keys to long term success, rather than a steady growth chart. He was wrong, and his era at SEGA was one of their most fiscally disastrous.

 

[RandomHajile]

2D games were sitting in warehouses, not being ordered by retailers, and heavily associated with 16-bit generation.

3D games were the new cutting edge thing across the entire industry, in the arcades, and on computers.

RPGs were niche and never sold well in the west until Final Fantasy 7 figuratively tricked everybody into buying a copy with it's cinematic cutscenes.

Yup, pretty much. Once FF7 opened the floodgates, everybody and his sister was putting an RPG out. I remember working in a software Etc store in the mid to late 90s and you saw how RPGs went from nerdy stuff to mainstream popularity basically overnight.

On the PC, Diablo had the same effect too. Once Diablo got big, everybody wanted more RPGs. You saw so many "Me-too's" come out.

I had a Saturn and remember the war between Bernie Stolar and Victor Ireland. At the time I truly despised the guy and blamed him for the Saturn having to rely on WD to get our RPG fix.

 

[Izzy]

Were they actually sitting in warehouses? They rapidly became niche games in general when 3D came out, and gamers are obsessed with the new thing or the next thing, but they still had fanbases that bought them, which is why they were still being made. RPGs were niche in the West but not as niche as people pretend. A lot of 16-bit RPGs received official Western releases, all in all. Final Fantasy 6 (bka 3) actually sold well in the West, too, even if it was 7 that finally made the genre really popular over here.

Mostly it was an image/marketing thing. The PSX needed to be the cool new thing, and it needed to cater to self-conscious teenagers and whatnot. 2D was old, and RPGs weren't cool yet.

I can top that. While in Japan for a year, they had every game just shelved. So I managed to see actual WS games, PSX and Saturn in both versions just stockpiled. Quite a bit of game stores did that and you saw more often than not, special editions over the standard edition. I see a bit of that influence in World-8 in both Koreatown and Little Tokyo locations.

 

[Ikagura]

2D games were sitting in warehouses, not being ordered by retailers, and heavily associated with 16-bit generation.

3D games were the new cutting edge thing across the entire industry, in the arcades, and on computers.

RPGs were niche and never sold well in the west until Final Fantasy 7 figuratively tricked everybody into buying a copy with it's cinematic cutscenes.

And yet... 16-bits game are beautiful (if not much better than many shoddy 3D games)...

Sega not taking any opportunities after FF7 was a massive mistake. Shining Force III and Sakura Wars could've sold the console in the west.

Yup, pretty much. Once FF7 opened the floodgates, everybody and his sister was putting an RPG out. I remember working in a software Etc store in the mid to late 90s and you saw how RPGs went from nerdy stuff to mainstream popularity basically overnight.

Even the N64 which was far from being a machine for RPGs started putting out those like Quest 64 and Paper Mario.

 

[PhaseJump]

And yet... 16-bits game are beautiful (if not much better than many shoddy 3D games)...

Sega not taking any opportunities after FF7 was a massive mistake. Shining Force III and Sakura Wars could've sold the console in the west.

Yeah, 16-bit games were not important at all to gamers by the time 1997 came around, and only 2D fighter fans were begging for bigger and better sprites. SNK and Capcom fighters still declined into oblivion over the years and went 3D. If 2D gaming was actually important or relevant then, the Neo Geo CD would have been a lot more successful up against the Saturn and Playstation.

Shining Force III released in the west and it was still insignificant after FF7. By then, Saturn was dead. Sakura Wars being able to sell Saturn consoles in the west before or even after FF7 is almost a complete joke to consider.

It's not a straight up JRPG. The franchise has never sold well in the west, and it's only hope would be PC or Switch ports that Sega seems to not want to put effort into.

Even the N64 which was far from being a machine for RPGs started putting out those like Quest 64 and Paper Mario.

The N64 put out and promoted whatever it could get regardless of genre. Quest 64 has no depth as an RPG and it sucked, but it was hyped to death thanks to Nintendo Power.

Nintendo had sequels to Earthbound and Mario RPG, one of which got cancelled and reworked as a Japanese only GBA game, the other released late in the console lifespan. The only thing they really offered up after FF7 would be Zelda 64 hype and a localized Pokemon.

Those games delivered, but I don't think FF7 benefited N64 or Saturn with any influence or new trend chasing from developers. It did cause SNES fans to switch over to Playstation in 98. Hybrid Heaven and Ogre Battle 64 flew under everybody's radar.

 

[petran79]

Yeah, 16-bit games were not important at all to gamers by the time 1997 came around, and only 2D fighter fans were begging for bigger and better sprites. SNK and Capcom fighters still declined into oblivion over the years and went 3D. If 2D gaming was actually important or relevant then, the Neo Geo CD would have been a lot more successful up against the Saturn and Playstation.

Shining Force III released in the west and it was still insignificant after FF7. By then, Saturn was dead. Sakura Wars being able to sell Saturn consoles in the west before or even after FF7 is almost a complete joke to consider.

It's not a straight up JRPG. The franchise has never sold well in the west, and it's only hope would be PC or Switch ports that Sega seems to not want to put effort into.

The bulk of 2d sprite based games was relegated to portable consoles. Eg Gameboy Color and later Gameboy Advance sold very well. But those consoles back then aimed at a younger audience and it was not possible to reach the polish of desktop consoles and arcades. No adult cared about those games, except maybe when Metroid Fusion arrived but only because of the long hiatus. I remember when I first tried a Gameboy Advance, I said no way I am buying this thing, my eyes will bleed.

As for arcades, late 90s marked the shift to larger 3d game cabinets that were much more expensive to rent for smaller operators. Only larger malls could afford them and it marked the end of the small arcade venues.

On computers 2d in the 90s survived mostly in the form of some isometric rpg and strategy games, eg Starcraft, Diablo, Ultima Online etc But even then, MS-DOS, a heaven for 2d games, was on its way out in 1999.

 

[UnDubious]

And yet... 16-bits game are beautiful (if not much better than many shoddy 3D games)...

Sega not taking any opportunities after FF7 was a massive mistake. Shining Force III and Sakura Wars could've sold the console in the west.
Even the N64 which was far from being a machine for RPGs started putting out those like Quest 64 and Paper Mario.

RPGs were hugely important to the Famicom and Super Famicom's popularity in Japan, and it's widely considered that both Square and Enix (two different companies then) announcing they would go with the Playstation instead for Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy 7 killed the N64 in Japan. You can literally pull yearly sales reports and see how it killed N64 sales over there around that time. So Nintendo wanted RPGs for the N64 all along, they just didn't have anyone to make them because the third parties that specialized in them wanted to work with Sony (who were nicer to developers since they needed to attract talent) and their CD-ROM console.
The same thing happened with Sega to a lesser degree. The reason we have Phantasy Star and Shining Force and Beyond Oasis and Landstalker and Skies of Arcadia is because Sega put together an "RPG room" within the company to work on RPGs nonstop long before FFVII, and helped former Chunsoft employees who'd worked on Dragon Quest set up companies like Climax to developer RPGs for them as well. But RPGs are long games to develop and you need third party interest.
FFVII's impact was a Western one. In Japan RPGs were huge since the 8-bit days.