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Message: [QUOTE="Somnia, post: 28907, member: 26523"] So what though? Like ignoring that half of Lethal League's characters could be mistaken for Megaman characters and not JSR-esque if not for the cel shading, why is that a bad thing? It is so nebulous to draw that line like that, especially when the only qualifier is "Sonic clearly wanted to be its own thing". Lethal League clearly did too, hence the extremely unique gameplay and character designs that pull from multiple sources of inspiration. This is what I mean when I say so much of this line of critique is surface level. And to be fair, the vast majority of the time that "something announces itself as a spiritual successor" it is journalists or people desperate to make the comparison doing it. The devs will rarely come out and say "We are basically making legally distinct X" even when you have examples like Bomb Rush Cyberfunk. Of course, with Bomb Rush anyone pretending that it isn't just trying to be JSR3 would be lying, but I again ask why that is somehow an inherent negative? It isn't like Sega seemed like they were planning a third game (though it is funny that now we are getting one) or that anyone else was filling the void for people who wanted that type of game. I've already made my claim that I'm fine with works being derivative or extremely unique, all that matters to me is that it is true to what the creators want to make. I could say something like "that it's good" but I'm enough of a weirdo to even not really care about that cause even if I personally dislike something that's fine and I don't wanna come off like I'm the arbiter of if something succeeds in what it set out to do or not. Honestly, it's kinda weird to regurgitate the most reductive and uncharitable reading in response. I'm really trying to be patient and understand what is being said but it really does come off as so detached from reality to me at this point. So many words yet nothing is really being said other than "This game has surface level similarities to something else and that makes it derivative" or as you say here /the same game/. How is Lovely Planet Remix the same game as Katamari outside of extremely surface level visual similarities? Again I loop back around to the vapid defense of Sonic (again I don't think it needs one anyways) as finding its own identity despite Sonic 1 being a game where you run, jump and do nothing else. It's primary distinction is in its presentation, with it sounding and looking unique from its contemporaries. But considering that every single time a comparison has come up between games the only argument I've been given is "They have surface level similarities" it becomes difficult to really think that anything of substance is being said. Obviously saying that about Sonic vs Mario is absurd of me, because when digging down into the level design philosophy and gamefeel they are extremely unique products. But when we are willing to say that Pikuniku is derivative of Locoroco purely because of aesthetics I fail to see how saying Sonic is derivative of Mario in terms of gameplay is any different. All of these examples share surface level qualities with each other either visually or mechanically before sprawling out into very unique styles of games. The fact that Gorse wants to say that games /in entirely different genres/ are derivative purely because of aesthetic similarities says it all to me. Once more, we can't simultaneously say "we're just questioning how creative indies are" and then turn around and try to spin that indies are openly derivative. Which is it? The answer is clearly that indies are both creative and steeped in inspiration to various degrees on a game-by-game basis. Same way that within a genre of film/music/whatever you can find works that are both far more derivative of an existing work or find new wrinkles of expression to help them standout despite being within the same genre as someone else. To be perfectly honest if someone looks at a game as sincere and unique within the "weird RPG" space as LISA, Yume Nikki or Omori and say they're just bait for Earthbound fans I don't think there is any hope for us to agree on anything. It is so disrespectful and disingenuous as a statement to me that I have to assume the person saying it knows almost nothing about those games. Again, it is surface level to look at any RPG that decides to buck genre conventions and just lump it in with Earthbound. It shows such a shallow understanding of the potential of adventure or RPG games to just look at anything deviating from the path as Earthbound-like. Games discussion is plagued with this kind of thing where the main way that people describe things isn't by describing the thing, but just by listing whatever it reminds them of. That has utility in many ways, but when we start using that as shorthand to write off a game's originality it feels absurd. Anyone who went into Earthbound and Undertale in good faith would see countless differences in design philosophy, themes, aesthetics and so much more. You don't have to like them, but there is a huge difference in going "I don't really care for unconventional RPGs" and trying to discount the immense heart and soul these games have by reducing all of their unique qualities both on the surface and deep down as just "bait for Earthbound fans". These games all have their own voices if we're willing to actually open up our ears and listen to what each is saying individually. Looking at just surface level characteristics and deciding that it isn't unique enough just feels like you're cheating yourself out of so many amazing experiences. If you're able to play Sonic 1 and Mario and recognize that despite having /the exact same base mechanics of running and jumping/ they are extremely unique then you should be able to look at Omori vs Earthbound vs Undertale and recognize just how many visual and mechanical differences they have on top of the bevy of themes, story and writing style differences. But we just won't, for some reason. We'll just list Katamari as a one-of-a-kind game when in the context of this discussion means very little imo. Bat Boy being a Mega Man style game did not stop Lethal Company from being a one-of-a-kind experience. Wargroove being a fantasy take on Advance Wars did not stop Fall Guys from blazing a new path for battle royales or PlayerUnknown from making the mod that started the genre in the first place. There is no opportunity cost to lament, no problem with some games being more or less unique than one another. [/QUOTE]

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